ATGiBdiscussion

Willamsburg Bridge, 1917
 * April 6:**
 * **First Impression of Francie**
 * Is a shy and innocent girl who keeps to herself
 * Is much of a dreamer and is curious with the outside world around her neighborhood
 * Is used to the routine set in her house and is familiar with the traditions/practices around the streets of Brooklyn
 * **Setting and time period**
 * Williamsburg, Brooklyn, New York 1917
 * Nolan- Rommely family of direct Austrian/Irish descent
 * Was based in a poor run down neighborhood where lower income, mixed raced families live.
 * The rate of money was much more value than it has today which repeatedly is told in the story to possibly emphasize how poor the family is.
 * **Comparison between 1900's-Present**
 * Value of money changed, basic needs were all worth less than a dollar and yet still thought to be expensive
 * The age that was typical to marry was much younger than it is today. The older you were back then the more people thought you would get married and now people purposely wait to marry until the major parts of their lives are over
 * Much more disciplined upbringing in families with morals, and beliefs set at a young age and yet there was no certain future that could be made because of the poverty status that limited many goals made. Now there is a more free kind of upbringing and it is quickly taught that no matter what you would like to be you can become it whether you are rich or poor.

- Johnny is affectionate towards Francie - Believes she has potential to be great - At times Johnny hurts Francie with his drunken ramblings and thoughts (how he never wanted a family) - Francie sometimes is forced to take care of Johnny - Francie adores her father but is shamed by the things she hears about him - Francie is closer to Johnny then she is to Katie - They're both dreamers and have artistic minds and souls - She has a fascination with the name 'John' - Her fascination may have something to do with her possible love for Johnny and how she loves to care for him - She gives but never takes - Her 'giving' can sometimes be seen as distasteful and wrong - She longs for a child of her own but she always loses her child (miscarriage, baby is born dead) - Has been married three times (Jim the Fireman [John to her], John Two, and the John who sold Magazines) - She's a free spirit who sees the world through her imagination - She adores and dotes on both Neeley and Francie - Began because of Katie's selfishness and desire for Johnny - She lost her best friend Hildy when she stole Johnny from her - In the end Johnny went Katie's way while Hildy went her own way - They were madly in love in the beginning and all through Katie's first pregnancy - Had fun together working at the school at night - When Katie went into labor their entire relationship changed - Johnny couldn't handle the responsibility of a child and the feeling that his life was being chained down and cut short - Johnny always had the best intentions but could never do anything right - After Francie was born Katie was forced to grow up due to Johnny's inability to be the man of the family and his lack of strength - Katie was the strong one in the relationship and she resented Johnny for that - After a couple of years Katie became bitter with her love for Johnny. She saw his flaws (drinking, weakness, etc.) and it lessened her respect and love fore him - Katie still loved Johnny but that didn't stop her from hating him at times - At times Katie was doubtful about their marriage but she was committed to her family. Still she would wonder if her selfish want for Johnny was the reason for their life of poverty - Katie held the burdens while Johnny felt like less of a man every time he would fail at supporting his family - A long quote describes their relationship, "By the time Neeley was a year old, Katie had stopped depending on Johnny. Johnny was drinking heavily... He had a wife and two babies before he was old enough to vote. His life was finished before it had a chance to begin...Johnny knew he was doomed and accepted it. Katie //wouldn't// accept it. She started a new life where her old one left off. She exchanged tenderness for capability. She gave up her dreams and took over hard realities in their place. Katie had a fierce desire for survival which made her a fighter. Johnny had a hankering after immortality which made him a useless dreamer. And that was the great difference between these two who loved each other so well" (Smith 96). - The Nolans gave her weaknesses and passion for beauty - Her maternal grandmother gave her mysticism, her ability to tell a tale and compassion - She gained cruel will from her maternal grandfather - Aunt Evy's mimicking - Ruthi Nolan's possesiveness - Sissy's love for children and life - Johnny's sentimentality - Katie's tender ways and half of her strength - Katie had both good and bad characteristics from her family and that made her one of the best contradictions - She had the weak Nolan blood in her and the strong Rommely blood in her - This will bring her to do great things because she seems to have all the perspectives and she is mature beyond her years. All these characteristics will play a part in Francie's future no matter the situation. The people that make up her family ultimately CREATE Francie as an individual with so many different parts.
 * April 13:**
 * **Johnny and Francie's relationship**
 * **Sissy's characteristics**
 * **Katie and Johnny's relationship**
 * **The characteristics found in Francie from every family member**

–Katie never wanted to acknowledge the fact that Johnny partly died –Now Johnny does not have to feel pressure from an increasing family –Johnny has a weak spirit, and it was better for Johnny to enter Heaven before he truly became crazy. –T his would not be so because he cared for his family. He also provided money and entertainment towards his family. –In other words, it is probably more of a punishment towards the family, and not Johnny. His death could help the family by giving them a chance to rebuild their lives. In other words, the family would be better off without Johnny. To Johnny, death could have been an award for him. He was spiraling into a deep depression, because he was swinging from job to job, with a baby on the way. Also, there was a sense that Johnny died emotionally, before he officially died from pneumonia. -With Johnny's death, there was a burden lifted off of his shoulders. -One of those burdens, was trying to give the baby a better life than Francie and Neeley had. This would be nearly to impossible with the way that Johnny was acting, and he did not want to change. Johnny never really liked the idea of change.
 * April 20:**
 * **Sissy’s baby**
 * Some people in the group, felt it was wrong to claim the baby as her own, because she deceived her husband. In marriage, couples are not supposed to lie to each other. Yet, this lie was very obvious, for Sissy did not visibly have a bump where the baby is supposed to be. Even if it was wrong, it is better to keep this secret away from her husband. For one thing, the baby would have parents that actually wanted it, in the care of Sissy. Also, this child filled a basic need that Sissy felt she needed to have, which was to children.
 * She’s going to give the baby a lot of love, so it isn't entirely bad that she deceived her husband.
 * With putting in perspective, Sissy's personality, she probably thought that it was not wrong. Sissy has wanted a baby for years, and she knew she was not going to get it if it was biologically hers. So, she picked a situation in which, she would feel good about taking someone else's baby.
 * **Katie's pregnancy**
 * Katie does not want to have stress over Johnny. Sometimes, Johnny is a handful because of his childish ways.
 * She doesn’t want to take care of Johnny, too. Last time, when Francie was born, she had to take of him. He was in so much shock that he was more emotional than Katie, who just bore her first child.
 * She fell out of love with Johnny: the baby’s the symbol of their love growing apart. Throughout the chapters of the novel, the readers can slowly see that Johnny and Katie's love is slowly fading away.
 * If she did, it would be like accepting charity; being dependent on someone else.
 * Katie believes that Johnny is better off dead. He would be too stressed out about the baby, keeping a job, and not being a failure to his wife and kids. Johnny was not emotionally strong enough to face the hard times that would come ahead. Johnny never looked to the future, and always focused on the present moment. This led to him slowly detaching himself from orders, to give them a glimpse of what is to come.
 * Why did Hildy come to Johnny's funeral? Hildy's ex-boyfriend was Johnny, and she was the one who was crying. Katie, did not cry one bit at the funeral. This signifies what Katie really felt about Johnny: She loved him, but it was not the same love as it used to be. Hildy held on to their love (with Johnny) because, she never forgot about him. She probably wanted him to come back to her, but her dream ended once Johnny died.
 * **Alcoholism**
 * **Was it punishment for Johnny to die?**
 * **Partial Blame on Katie**
 * –Katie wanted the perfect husband, which is impossible, because no one is perfect. **
 * –Katie never really appreciated her husband. **
 * -In the show, Jon & Kate plus 8, Jon leaves Kate after her constant nagging is too much for him. In other words, Kate never highlighted the good qualities that Jon possessed. **
 * –Johnny could have tried to strive for a better life. This could have been done, easily, if Johnny looked for a job. Yet, Johnny probably thought that his only talents were dancing and singing, talents that would not survive in the office or factory settings. Therefore, Johnny died by giving up on everything **
 * –Died emotionally before physically: all the events in his life broke his spirit, and he had no will to live anymore. **
 * –Emotionally detached himself fom everything. He probably knew that he was going to die young, like his brothers. So, he wanted the family to not feel a lot of pain over his death. Yet, this was the complete opposite. **
 * - Eventually led to death **
 * – In a way, alcohol was a medicine for Johnny. This medicine allowed for him to progress through his troubles in life. Once he was sober for the last two to three weeks, it was like taking away his life support. Without life support, someone cannot live, and that is what happened to Johnny. **
 * -Francie and Neeley lost hope in him, so they learned to accept his flaws. Johnny knew this, and he could not better himself, for he did not know how to. **
 * This led, to Francie gaining more respect for Katie, even though it is obvious that Katie loves Neeley more. **

• Perception of how to fight poverty • Getting more into working • Their tin can bank • Money management • Taste of success and worry-free • Creates job-to-job approach
 * April 27:**
 * How does Francie’s perception of poverty change throughout the section?**

• Deeper understanding • Eyes are being opened to how hard her past was

• Embracing poverty • Doesn’t have to depend on anyone

• Some people have stuff handed to them

• All of her previous interactions are shaping her • She has more focus • She is more independent • Her mentality is different because of her background • Was forced to grow up because of isolation from friends: took job at too young of an age
 * How are Francie’s previous experiences of loneliness affecting her now and what is hindering her from overcoming it?**

• Like Katie, almost like a mother, at 15 years old

• Felt lonely after Johnny’s death • He was her only kindred spirit • She could always relate to him, and now he’s gone • Katie and Francie can’t get along because they’re the same and can’t don’t understand themselves, so don’t understand each other

• Setting him up for success, unlike Johnny
 * In the long run, is it better for Katie to love Neeley more than Francie?**

• Setting him up for dependency • Better if Neeley was nagged on • More of a slacker

• Francie has been more hardened, matured, made independent from the nagging • Neeley has everything handed to him and is cared for

• Neeley needs an extra push

• But Neeley has been created to need that push by his mother • Katie fell for his blond curls, and she’s set him up to be that way • Creating Francie to be like her • Recreating themselves, the whole idea of making process generation to generation

• Interesting how Laurie will turn out • Francie and Johnny are mini-me’s, so where will Laurie end up?

• Trial and error • Made all her mistakes with Neeley and Francie

• Will Laurie be as fiercely independent • Katie may spoil her, won’t be as hard • Laurie will be supported with Francie and Neeley’s money • Katie is harsher with Francie because it was the first time Johnny wasn’t there for her

• Katie: you don’t let them see the ugly side of you (childbirth) • That affects the man’s view of you

• Feminist movement affects marriage dynamic

• He had pieces of Johnny in him and he released them to the family (gained through talking to Johnny) • McGarrity longs for those qualities • Katie might have said yes if he had more of Johnny’s qualities • She felt the connection to McGarrity: got an outsider’s perspective • Saw the good in him
 * Does McGarrity have Johnny’s qualities? How does this affect Francie?**

• Francie is ashamed • He told McGarrity all of those stories of how he was proud of his family, but they were ashamed of him

• He shouldn’t have expected to be accepted in the family

• McGarrity is a representation of the bad part of Johnny, where he went to get drunk • The drunk in Johnny

• Topic to be carried over: Laurie

• Coming back into reality • Coming into adulthood, forgetting innocence • Bless Me, Ultima connection (LOSS OF INNOCENCE!) • See her development • Her first taste of an non-ideal world started with the man’s disgusting toe: symbol of change • Her parents were always making decisions • Can’t waste time • Prove a point: doesn’t always have to be good • Good can turn into bad • One door closes, two more open
 * What does the burning of Francie’s A compositions symbolize?**

• Starting to embrace identity • As a child, she saw Brooklyn as some beautified environment • She wrote poems and happy things • Now she’s writing about drunks, etc. and seeing the truth of her identity

• Lots of irony in this book • Steve cheating on Sissy, which would normally be a nightmare, turns into a dream come true with Sissy finally getting a baby
 * Sissy?**

-Mcshane has always had a crush on Katie -More like a business deal instead of a relationship -Katie can finally be spoiled by a man and be comforted by a man instead of having to take care of Johnny for a change -“Being needed is almost better then being loved” -The wedding might not have been a good idea since Katie has so much independence. -In the end it may have been a good thing so that Katie can have a guy in her life and Laurie grow up with a dependent father. -Johnny would be happy that his girls are being taken care of, but still hurts that his little girl will never know him.
 * May 4**
 * Katie’s marriage to McShane (foreshadowing)**

-Would be better for her to grow up in a stable environment with money and Katie -Neeley and Francie had each other and their father, while Laurie is the youngest and kind of alone -Katie will still make Laurie work, but she’ll go softer on her -If Laurie were to grow up like Neeley and Francie then she would grow up more independent, while she would be less strong in the future if she was raised differently. -Laurie’s upbringing is sort of a reward for the hard work Neeley and Francie had to face. -They made their mistakes with the two older kids and they’re making up for it with Laurie
 * Laurie’s upbringing**

-He already is talented, social, and loves music -Great for Francie to see the way her father was before the problems in Neeley -Neeley gives Johnny justice by saying Johnny was a good guy despite his alcohol problems -Johnny and Katie were opposites and by having that, Neeley got the best traits of both parents. -He has his fathers sympathy and talent, with his mothers strength and care
 * Will Neeley carry on Johnny’s legacy?**

-Its his plan TO need francie -He needs a perfect wife -The fallacy story about the raccoon coat and how it was like Ben’s molding of Francie into the perfect wife -They need each other to be successful -Francie is like her mother but she’s not falling for the weak handsome man and she learned for her mother’s mistakes -Was separated from the relationship aspect by seeing how her mother was with Johnny -Ben’s her strong and successful man while Francie is Ben’s future women to his perfect life
 * Does Ben Blake needs Francie**

-Why had Francie fallen for a man in such a short time -Katie was trying to tell Francie that it could have only lasted so long -That either way Francie may have said no -Francie wished she had a man to hold in the beginning, and she was swept away by Lee -Francie was going along with the amazement of Lee’s comfort and closeness -Good idea that Francie said no -Lee was disappointed that Francie wouldn’t be ashamed by their night together and it kind of put him off
 * Which side was right; Katie as a mother or Katie as a women?**

-It was satisfying because Francie broke the mold of a poverty stricken family, but it was disappointing to -Followed Francie through her whole life and it was anticlimactic since we followed her through her entire life -Liked the message at the end of the book
 * Was the ending what you expected?**

-When Neeley and Francie in the end were talking about how they did have fun. (Smith 472) -When Katie was talking about New Years and how she claimed that she hoped they were always together and happy (Smith 403) -When Francie said a prayer when war was declared, that let her always be feeling and thinking no matter what. (Smith 421) -When Francie was young and always optimistic and claimed that there was always a ray of light in the muddy waters. She was always optimistic with her family despite hard times. (Smith 165) -When Francie said it was better to be needed then loved. (Smith 332)
 * What was the best quote?**

-If you love them so much then you need them -When Katie was protecting Francie from the predator it was out of love and motherly instincts then need, but she does need Francie.
 * Would you rather be needed or loved?**